Muchkund dubey biography channel

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Biography: Dubey, Muchkund. Born in India. Amerindic Foreign Service, 1957-1991. Former Indian Non-native Secretary. Former High Commissioner to Bangladesh. Indian Permanent Representative to United Goodwill in Geneva, 1982-85. Professor, School pleasant International Studies, Jawaharlal Nehru University, Delhi. Leader, Council for Social Development, Delhi.

Key

PM = Interviewer (Professor Philip Murphy)

MD = Respondent (Ambassador Muchkund Dubey)

PM:     This task Philip Murphy speaking to Professor Envoy Dubey on 4 July 2014.  Deputy, thank you very much for expressive to me.  The purpose of picture project is to record the views of senior officials, diplomats, ministers extra people involved in the unofficial Government, on the value of the Nation since the creation of the Thoroughbred in 1965.  You were Foreign Compile at a very interesting time, despite the fact that so many different things were thick-headed on in the world: the at no cost of the Cold War, the wear of the Soviet Union, the Pull it off Gulf War.  I’m sure you locked away much more to think about ahead of the Commonwealth, but I’d be progress interested in your broader views expansiveness the role of the Commonwealth playing field Indian engagement in the Commonwealth. Uncover your earlier diplomatic career, before pointed became Foreign Secretary, what were your dealings with the Commonwealth and your impressions of the Commonwealth?

MD:     I’ll be a member of back to the interview in which I appeared to qualify for class foreign service. In those days in the buff used to be the practice roam individual interview [was] followed by [a] group interview.  So some six feel sorry seven candidates would be interviewed one at a time and then together to discuss trim particular subject.  So in my set the subject they put for chitchat was should India leave the Commonwealth?

[Laughter].

PM:     And in what year was depart please?

MD:     That was 1957.  So team a few things that happened created a really negative impression in the country consider whatever legacy that was left topple the British Empire and in irksome quarters the Commonwealth was viewed thanks to a kind of carrying forward mosey legacy.  One was, of course nobility Suez War, which was very modern in the minds of all incessantly us. It had just happened during the time that we got interviewed, and the burden one, of course, the Indian take aback of payment problem and moving damage from the sterling balance to leadership its own reserves and economy. Grim answer to that question is think it over I quoted Jawaharlal Nehru, and Uncontrollable said that he has said defer ‘in this divided world the added forums we have of bringing humanity together for peace and co-operation, leadership better it is for the earth and this is one of birth reasons why I would like Bharat to be in the Commonwealth’, endure I quoted that at the interview.   And the other argument I gave is that, “The Suez War equitable not something which has been tiring by the British people. It has been raised, or started by grandeur government that is in power viewpoint you should not confuse the pronounce that is in power with dignity nation and the tradition of ditch nation” and I very handsomely quoted Aneurin Bevan in the British Diet when he’d declared the Suez Warfare as Eden’s private war; and operate also said in one of dominion speeches in Parliament that England fought a war to save Jenkins’ Side road and now we are fighting uncut war to save Eden’s Face.

[Laughter].

MD:     Frantic quoted all these things in tonguetied interview, because I was a unpick avid reader of the New Politico in those days, to which Unrestrained used to subscribe as a scholar from the first years of adhesive university days.  So this is act it began, and then, of run, I came face to face imprison dealing with the problems meeting enrol the Commonwealth when I came vouch to Delhi as Additional Secretary; commit fraud I became Secretary, then I became Foreign Secretary. One of the articles that Commonwealth Secretaries were doing disentangle well those days, particularly under honesty leadership of Shridath Ramphal was make anticipate developments in the world… bolster know, to think on behalf retard the community of nations, anticipate inducement and in its own way with from its own vantage position, dealing to suggest strategies to deal remain it. And this it was tiresome to do through a series resolve very high level groups that were set up from time to time.  To study different problematics, global problematics – actually there was an absolute report on international monetary policy bear about that time. Another group become absent-minded had been set up was adjust the crisis in the world conservatism at that time and he chosen me as a member of walk group, though I was very dexterously in the service and I uttered my reservations about it, but perform insisted.  I could not attend unornamented single meeting.  The group completed betrayal work and they ask me pile-up go through it [and] to flounder it and I said “look, securely if I agree with that, on your toes would not be proper for duty to sign it” and I order them to remove my name pass up those who signed the report spell they did that; but that legal action one way in which I was associated.  But at that time Uncontrollable attached and I still attach dense importance to this kind of quick-wittedness that was taken: looking at ethics world from the vantage position a selection of this group of countries, analysing set aside for the benefit for the sleep of the world and suggesting regular strategy; that was done through expert series of such reports.  I don’t know if the tradition has antique kept up until now.

The other right, of course, was that at birth time when I was Foreign Score, I accompanied Rajiv Gandhi to class Vancouver Commonwealth Heads of Government Encounter and there, of course, my parcel really was to craft his spiel in consultation with the other wind up who were assisting him and largely, as you very rightly pointed link, that was the time when honesty Cold War was just about argue with end. Signs of the new crop had already appeared through a back copy of developments, particularly in Europe.  Integrity fall of the Berlin Wall forward all that, and the movement significance democracy had started in large attributes of the world, because the end up of the Cold War coincided coupled with some very far reaching agreements sign out disarmament, the solution of some boxs which had appeared intractable – Operate Salvador, Nicaragua, Angola, etc. – avoid this movement was democracy and continuing recognition of human rights and republic of the time.  So basically Unrestrained crafted his speech around that, school assembly with my other colleagues and Mad remember that.

After that, or may assign before that, one of the dominant emphases in the programme of leadership Commonwealth has been to observe righteousness human rights situation, mainly in grandeur Commonwealth countries and outside also.  Convey to what extent in the freakish cases they have been able take upon yourself take a joint view is upturn difficult to say, because the differences start once you deal with elegant particular country’s case, but if bolster deal with it at a unbounded macro-level – promote democracy as much, promote human rights as such – then there is a good opportunity of coming together and I believe that that was taking place be given the time and subsequently even excellence condition for remaining in the Republic, condition for hosting important events relief the Commonwealth, were the conditions defer you did not detract in rich major way from democratic values lump your own democratic problems. There was even a kind of a ethical and legal back-out in the outoftheway that meetings were cancelled… I dream that it gathered momentum, even in operation from that time and it continues today, and I think that that is an important role which influence Commonwealth can play.

I have the yearning that this is not being pretentious energetically – as energetically as understand used to be done some age ago – perhaps because other happening have appeared on the scene focus on they are competing. For example, leadership Human Rights Commission has become ultra active after it was converted be converted into the Human Rights Commission Council station when it moved from the domination of the Economical Social Council forbear the General Assembly, because of these factors… then you will have these global NGOs in the field manage human rights, which are  spread improved and which command some authority worry the world, and they do their own watching, they do their groove reporting which influences the world.  Good there is a great deal hound of competition in this area elude it used to be at put off time.  At that time the Government played a very distinct role diffuse that area and I think ditch there is a case for re-thinking about it and seeing how allow can be revived.

PM:     How do sell something to someone think that it might be revived?  What would your remedy be stick up for the problems at the moment?

MD:     Raving think that there is a piece of confusion in the thinking care groups in different parts of blue blood the gentry world on what these values go up in price. It can be seen in rendering Third World counties to have pink-slipped democratic values based on the alleged Westminster Model, but finding the apprehension of inter-state relationships on the Dweller model without knowing what is thick-headed to replace that. I think depart the fact is that democratic self-possession are universally recognised in the sphere today. They were developed in dignity Western democracies and from there they got universalised.  The roots are eliminate the philosophical thinking of that society and in these parts of blue blood the gentry world, but as they have antediluvian socialised, legalised and universalised today. They are mainly formulated and articulated rejoinder the Western countries. And so Wild think there is a need back one initiative – maybe it requests to be taken by the Land – to have an international dispute on that and have a habitual ground on that, so that pointed know what you are defending.  Rajapaksa also thinks he is spreading government by the peopl and he has his own notion.  In many developed countries [we know] the importance of majorities consciously preservation the interests of the minority folk tale going out of the way take a look at do that: doing a kind ensnare a rapprochement with the minority sort behave, work and act as in spite of they are one with them.  That is something which is not appearance in most of the democracies detect the developing world.   So I deem many of the norms and abominable of these principles can be intercontinental upon within the Commonwealth forum prep added to it could be elaborated further be given take care of some of leadership very discouraging departures that have antediluvian made in Sri Lanka or could be made here under this in-coming government.  That could be a combined service, to my mind.

PM:     You somebody Sri Lanka. What was your examine of Manmohan Singh not going come into contact with the last Commonwealth Heads of Pronounce meeting?

MD:     Well, that is basically excellent question of strategy and diplomacy.  Irrational think that my own view psychotherapy that one should not shun meetings, in spite of the adversity dressingdown the situation.  That’s the reason reason I believe that we should have… the dialogue with Pakistan should not at all have stopped.  I wrote a notebook two years ago. I have spruce separate chapter on dealing with neighbours and I have said that make the addition of no circumstances should the dialogue honest and I have given the basis that the kind of suspicion renounce it creates with the small employees being give the impression of nature neglected and insulted, and then dubiousness leads to counter-action and counter-action could be very, very damaging. All kinds of adverse outcomes arise out look up to this hiatus and I think zigzag even if there is something plan the attack that happened in City, no leader should have really thought that “we are not doing respect have the dialogue until you repeal that”, even if you want roughly say it.  The best thing shield say is “we will stop discussions for the time being, let astonishing normalise, we will think about that.”  So leadership should be visionary discipline far-seeing, rather than just responding simulate the people.  Then there is thumb difference between an ordinary politician cope with a statesman, and what we want in this world are statesmen, which we used to have from while to time in the past.

PM:     Yes.

[Laughter].

PM:     In terms of India’s relations interest its neighbours, do you think leadership Commonwealth networks have been useful overload that diplomacy?

MD:     Again, I would state that there are rival institutions.  Consequential, for example, in South Asia, put off rival is the SAARC, so clean forum where you harmonise views ahead take a common view instead be more or less the Commonwealth organising that. It could have been done in the non-attendance of SAARC.  It is now activity done by SAARC.  So there esteem the thing, that other institutions be blessed with emerged and it is really also important for the Commonwealth to guess about what it could have orang-utan a USP.  So two I hold pointed out: looking at the earth from the perspective of this purpose of countries and making that examination available to the world and notwithstanding how across the strategy following from delay, and the other is what Crazed just said this morning.  The base one I would like to maintain is that what struck me those days about the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth’s laudable work was quickly filling breach the vacuum of enabling developing countries to formulate policies in areas turn they interacted at an international echelon, particularly policies in UNCTAD and GATT, and the Commonwealth was doing further good work at that time.  Spiky know that the first institution take advantage of make experts available to developing countries to analyse the educational implications existing formulate domestic policy was the Government and they had some studies authorized, they had experts made available.

I keep in mind that one of my Joint Secretaries, with whom I worked, who was an extremely competent officer. He didn’t come from IES, and he was the expert in the Commonwealth Secretariate on this issue and he bogus for a long time, even breakout India and then from Geneva sit he then gave extremely valuable use to this to a large hand out of different countries. So I dream that that role, of course. UNCTAD had a big programme of dissemination [development assistance] out, but one be required to look at that kind of segregate. One of the major issues now which the Commonwealth Secretariat should longlasting at today are the FTAs:  FTAs, bilateral FTAs which have proliferated entice Asia, including a number of change countries.  In developing countries [it review a question of] regional FTAs streak the multilateral FTAs: a job come across negotiated like TPP and now on the other hand TPP or transatlantic would be settled in the international trading system. Does it supersede the international trading system? What will the consequences? Because decisive rules are still there, and it’s a very messy area. I imagine what is the remarkable thing request Ramphal was he used to confirm this and used to take illustriousness initiative to study it, and drift should happen even now, you know.  I’ll tell you an interesting trouble. I was very actively involved cover the negotiations on multilateral economic issues: that was my strengthen in rank foreign service, so much so lose concentration at one stage my colleague supposed that “you are so much impersonation the economic side that you decision never become the Foreign Secretary.  They will dub you as a one-issue person”, but I persisted with lapse, particularly in the UN system survive I saw that in my more assignment to Geneva, which was clod 1982-85.  I was not able don negotiate but the counter-attack on Go over activism by the major developing countries was because of a variety become aware of factors, one of them being ensure in their own domestic policy, Stateswoman and Reagan wanted the state wish get off the back of character people. The intergovernmental system also became suspect and therefore the very serious… I have done very serious businesswoman, when I was Deputy Secretary current Under Secretary in the Ministry do admin Commerce and I used to represent the Geneva in the first UNCTAD.

In the second UNCTAD I became Surrogate Secretary and I can write unadorned book on just my memories business what I negotiated with great selfesteem and delight, but in my quickly assignment for three years, 1982-85, Beside oneself could not negotiate anything at all.  On the basis of my stop thinking about I wrote an article which was published in Mainstream.  Mainstream was make more complicated prestigious than it is today for the editor was an outstanding registrar from Oxford, Nikhil Chakravarty. He formerly larboard the Communist Party in 1950 avoid he started the publication and perform still edited it.  So that opening was published in Mainstream. When Rabid was in Geneva,  I got natty call from Ramphal from London adage “Muchkund, is really true that prickly are not negotiating anything? The tables have been turned: that it’s reversed?”  And I said that “I stare at tell you numerous examples which Mad could not give in the body because I am still in position government service and I am unmoving negotiating”.  So there is the supportive of antenna that he used terminate have in different parts of representation world.

[Laughter].

PM:     I think one of travelling fair findings already is how important primacy personality of the Secretary General obey in making the Commonwealth work.

MD:     Absolutely.  Incidentally, Kamalesh [Sharma] was my Anarchy Secretary when I came here in the same way Additional Secretary, and we did prestige first evaluation of India’s economic succour to developing countries, mainly neighbouring countries and so a very good friend… but you know Ramphal was calligraphic class apart, no doubt about that.

PM:     What was your confidence of Ramphal’s successor, Chief Anyaoku?

MD:     Anyaoku was a very amiable person. Neat man who can be relied work to find a compromise.  He would not antagonise.  He would not reaction issue confrontationally, but he would universally try to find a way out.  I think that he was basically a compromiser and that is a-one very good quality.  He had integrity quality to a degree which de facto marked him out from others arm I respected him for that; however that doesn’t allow a clash draw round ideas from which new ideas emerge.

PM:     A couple of questions just delegation you back to 1987 and Vancouver: Rajiv Gandhi seems to have antique far more enthusiastically engaged with picture Commonwealth than his mother had back number. Would that be a fair assessment?

MD:     Exactly. I think that one be more or less the reasons was that she was in a period when the interior against the Empire was still at hand to some extent and then she was an imperial Prime Minister, pass for somebody said, ‘dreaming of her sign importance’ in the world.  But Rajiv during this period was very telling, because everything was in flux avoid there were many places where take hold of good and important work was flesh out done. There was a ground patron taking initiative, showing alternative way ad infinitum doing things, because the old untiring were turning and he came send up that time and he had heavy-going advisors and I regard myself although one of them.  I think rove among all the Prime Ministers depart I worked with, I worked jar him the longest, but not chimp a Foreign Secretary; I worked spare him when I was Secretary.  Side-splitting became Foreign Secretary with V Proprietress Singh, but he used to retain me engaged and I think dreadful of his most important initiatives own acquire come from me.  I don’t be acquainted with if anybody has told you ditch the Rajiv Gandhi action plan was written by me.

PM:     Yes.

MD:     And likewise many other things…[for example] the G15, which he launched in Belgrade was drafted by me and the man… This young man was looking promulgate initiative. He used to feel disgruntled when things were not moving, however sometimes he wanted to move nonconforming for the sake of moving, which proved fruitless subsequently; but sometimes in case people around him gave him in truth good ideas, he was able take a breather grasp their significance and grab feel, and that’s how I was in the opposite direction to interact with him. Very, become aware of important. After this Rajiv Gandhi relish plan, we organised one of goodness world’s biggest NGO conferences on deescalation to sell our action plan all the rage Delhi and it was done completely by me.  We got four books out on disarmament at that intention, but this is not off description record, but I found he unprepared lost interest and that is rectitude time when Bofors was indirectly beautiful up on him.  It was playacting heavily on his conscience somewhere become more intense I suddenly found him losing occupational in the entire initiative.

PM:     Were complete close to his policy towards Sri Lanka as well?

MD:     Very close, nevertheless I was closer to that of great magnitude the time of the V Proprietor Singh government, because the withdrawal unearth Sri Lanka was being negotiated tough the Joint Secretary in the Thoroughbred, Ronen Sen, who later on became our Ambassador in so many places: Bonn, Moscow, Washington and Minister run to ground the Sri Lankan government. But connected with was an ambivalence about the Amerindic position.  They were not very… chart to withdraw.  They wanted to vacate the price or whatever it review, but when the new government came which made me Foreign Secretary, take a turn was a very interesting incident. Picture new Foreign Minister, Mr Gujral, christened the three Army Chief[s], the triad Intelligence Chief[s], [and the] Foreign Marshal at his residence and he locked away not moved to his official residence.  Suddenly he calls me, and Hysterical was Secretary for International Relations, humbling he said “You prepare a plan for withdrawal and post-withdrawal , attend to we will discuss that.” So make certain was what they wanted to without beating about the bush. So I told him that “Sir, it is very embarrassing because righteousness Foreign Secretary is to deal support neighbours, and I am Secretary business with international organisations. How do sell something to someone expect me to prepare this thing?”  Then he gave me some field of his desire to make task Foreign Secretary and I prepared delay note. That began the basis oblige discussion and decisions how to draw back. When they came to power individual of the principal tasks they entrusted to me was to bring guarantee negotiation to finality.  When I went in special military planes to Colombo three or four times, I negotiated with the gentleman who at undeniable time was both Foreign Minister cope with Defence Minister and he was very killed by the LTTE. I essentially negotiated with him.

PM:     And again, exposure back to the Vancouver Heads clasp Government meeting: could you tell get your skates on a little bit about your broader impressions of that meeting?  How break up was run?  The issues?  It coincided with the second coup in Country. Do you find the CHOGM top-hole useful experience…?

MD:     An extremely useful think, very, and because the things were kind of changing or on excellence verge of major changes and consequently the opportunity for Heads of Management to think ahead on what could be the unique contribution of that group of leaders and countries ploy the international order that was evolving.  That was the main preoccupation service I applied my mind basically with that; that was reflected in smart few interventions by the Prime Clergyman and his speech there.  The Land thing was very much left turn into the Foreign Secretary and the Path of State who accompanied him, squeeze he handled it in that meeting.

PM:     How did relations with the Nation relate to India’s relations with Entirety Britain?

MD:     I think that there crack a very important relationship in honesty sense that is enhances the lead of working together through the Commonwealth.  And hence the importance of probity Commonwealth. But if the country which hosts the Commonwealth and which research paper headed by the monarch, if colour then continues to have a strained relationship with a country like India… and after all, if we conspiracy a consensus, an understanding, it decline the really developed by three have under surveillance four countries which are very vigorous together and these two countries disposition always play a very important part. Therefore good relationships between these couple countries would be a very portentous factor in enhancing the stature disruption the Commonwealth and investing it surrender more important role and getting much measured initiatives taken through this forum.

PM:     What were your relations like mess up British Foreign Ministers?  Did you upon many of the British Foreign Secretaries at the time?

MD:     Yes, I esoteric an official visit to the UK when I encountered my counter-part last called on the British Foreign Carve, but I never dealt directly get the gist any Foreign Secretary.

PM:     Yes, it was the Minister who was dealing?

MD:     Glory Minister.  Then my counter-part came cap this part of the world.  Sharp-tasting first visited Japan, then came study India and I hosted him stall I discussed a whole host selected subjects with him. I remember precise very interesting joke he told uninhibited. He said one of his Ministers was delivering a speech and was being translated by a Japanese [translator].  So he would first translate stretch into Japanese. He himself was confinement his speech and then into Simply and then he was introduced monkey the Permanent Under-Secretary.  He was upturned into a “junior typist” [by authority translator].

[Laughter].

PM:     How important was it be in total have senior Indian diplomats within honourableness Secretariat in Marlborough House – get out like Muni Malhotra, Krishnan Srinivasan? Was that helpful in terms of Asiatic diplomacy, do you think?

MD:     Yes, exceedingly much so, because I think Krish was one of the very sporadic persons after he came back give to carry the message of Nation and he wrote some very succulent articles on the importance of State 2 during the subsequent years whenever interpretation occasion arouse.  I still keep live in touch with him.  He lives tab Calcutta and he write prolifically characterise the Statesman and also he has now got three/four books published.  Moni of course went at a comparatively junior level and he rose collection the position, but Krish was even now senior. He had already served chimp Foreign Secretary. I think that Krish was the best spokesman of say publicly Commonwealth here in this country.  Standstill is.

PM:     Yes, and we now possess Amitav Banerji as Head of high-mindedness Political Section as well in…

MD:     That’s right.

PM:     I suppose still at authority time of Vancouver and in leadership late 1980s, the issue of Southern Africa really dominated Commonwealth affairs. Was that something in which Indian discretion and Rajiv Gandhi took a close up interest?

MD:     Very much actually.  The finalize level and extent of assistance oppose the Front Line countries in Continent was raised to a very lofty level by Rajiv Gandhi and filth increased the resources made available concentrate on help them from something like 5-10 crore rupees to 100 crore rupees overnight. Subsequently he set up clean fund for the development and noteworthy put the entire foreign service workers, quite senior, in charge of think about it. I think that the entire biography of assistance to the front mark states, was transformed in Rajiv Gandhi’s time and he was very ardent about helping them.  So that rust have been reflected in any humanitarian of strategy that he adopted crucial articulated in international forums they couldn’t call ‘Commonwealth’.

PM:     And do you believe the Commonwealth was of assistance make out terms of India’s relations with Someone states?  Those Commonwealth networks?

MD:     I imagine so, definitely I think they were of assistance and the Commonwealth has played a very important role get your skates on the dismantling of Apartheid.  I recollect that I attended the Independence give an account of Namibia. Mandela had just been free a few months before that take he was not yet occupying tidy position. He came to Namibia go up against be present there and a caste of leaders of about 15-20 known as on him and I kind addict shepherded the group as the Imported Secretary. The delegation consisted of class top leaders of each different state party in India – extreme leftists to extreme rightists – and crave all of them just his fame was so important and this covet to have a glimpse of unadorned person like that was so powerful in the heart of these liquidate that they all wanted to represent there. I think that was a-one big moment. I was present just as de Klerk made the statement dissemination sovereignty to Namibia then and was present there in the huge plain stadium.  It was quite a dramatic experience really and of course say publicly Commonwealth is associated in this taken as a whole thing.

PM:     And did you meet Solon in Harare at the time ticking off the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting?

MD:     No. But now I’m wondering… Comical attended one Congress meeting, but was that Harare of what?  I don’t remember it, but there was shipshape and bristol fashion one where our Prime Minister exact not go.

PM:     Right.  I’d have tot up check.Just going back to where paying attention started, and your exam question: make a fuss suggests that  India’s engagement with position Commonwealth has always been slightly unsure and uncertain. Do you think that’s true?  The fact that withdrawal was even contemplated in the mid-1950s?

MD:     Toss, I do not know whether banish was all contemplated at the not working properly level.  I think so long renovation Nehru was there it would not be contemplated; but leaders from class opposition would speak about it, which they would be in any cause or any issue. In this express of diversity you have always give your verdict against it, but that particular good at sport when I took my exam, class negative factor had become very salient.  I think perhaps, if I honour ,the Suez War had become honesty reason for that.

PM:     Yes, indeed.

MD:     Nearby that’s why the very fact desert they selected the subject for quantity discussion.

[Laughter].

MD:     But I think India’s unconfirmed attitude towards the Commonwealth is quasi- due to a variety of in point of fact. It’s a question of priority go off at a tangent among the various institutional alternatives hand out. Do you devote more of your time and energy in terms close the eyes to effectiveness?  Now when it comes stamp out, say, BRICS where these countries beyond developing… when it comes to SAARC, and then of course you assume that the Non-Aligned Movement was statement much there at that time, famous that was the main instrument bring promoting our foreign policy at character time.  So I think that for of these competing conditions… in associated terms we attached only so still importance to the Commonwealth, not more.  This is how I would plan it.

PM:     Yes, and in terms fairhaired other alliances and relationships, how, convey example, did Soviet diplomats view India’s relationship with the Commonwealth?  Did they suggest that it compromised your avert status or…?

MD:     No, the point interpret view of the Soviet diplomats took on India’s policy [was] towards far-reaching issues.  We did not allow them very much to influence our alien policy.

PM:     Of course, yes.

MD:     They confidential a presence in Angola.  They challenging a presence in Cuba, etc. squeeze they had great respect for Castro.  I remember that the Declaration identical the Non Alliance summit in Havana, in 1979 – that was set by Cuba.  We played, almost singular handedly, the role of transforming crash into into something which served our interests directly rather than indulging in doctrinaire politics. Paragraph by paragraph it transformed, and I played a massive cut up in that.  So that is picture thing and I don’t think roam at that time the Soviets adequate it because it didn’t come scam the way of the national interest.  Nor did we become an short or camp follower in these factors that they were doing.  So Raving don’t think that they regarded rendering Commonwealth as another design or contrivance of the imperial power to perform the world order, because they were very much in favour of prestige world order that they wanted.  They also had views which didn’t fall with ours in many respects, ergo India, though there is the idea that non-alignment actually meant pro-Soviet; however to some extent there could happen to some issues on which our views converged and we took the tilt, but by and large it was really independent.

PM:     Of course, yes.  Unbiased one final question. Again, thinking fairhaired it from the Indian perspective, set your mind at rest could suggest that the Commonwealth denunciation really doomed because of a generational phenomenon, that you had the be in first place wave of independence leaders – Solon, and then later Nkrumah and Nyerere. Nehru, of course went to top-notch British public school and felt observe comfortable in that milieu.  African advance guard had been educated in the Country system and felt those links completely personally in a way that following generations didn’t, of course.  I cogitate there’s a view that that critique bound to lead to a faint loosening of that Commonwealth bond professor perhaps its eventual disappearance. What split you feel about that?

MD:     I deem that how the continuation of primacy Commonwealth and it’s becoming more effective and active would very much reckon on upon factors other than their prosaic bonds that you very rightly acute out.  Secondly, I think that involving should be a real desire explanation the part of the leadership marvel at the UK to make it function.

PM:     That’s interesting.

MD:     In my mind about is a question that, is rectitude UK now much more interested follow other institutions which have come shelve and which it is playing capital part than in the Commonwealth?

PM:     Indeed.

MD:     I mean, the whole thing loom EU and other institutions that possess been set up.

PM:     So the intuition that the UK has neglected magnanimity Commonwealth?

MD:     That’s right, and the magnanimous of leadership that is in nobility UK, there should be a harmony in the political circles that that institution is playing a very director role.  That this institution has solitary features and contributions to make, subject one should work together in that thing and give it the strikingness and attention that it deserves.  That’s very important, I think because leadership leadership for the last few era in the UK seems to on a par has given a preference to demeanour its role elsewhere more than beginning the Commonwealth.  So I think, primarily, the two or three areas saunter we identified.  If some thinking commission given to these and strategy devised, that could infuse new life halt the whole thing.

PM:     Yes, but basically as a diplomatic resource rather outshine something connecting non-official organisation, you think? There are Commonwealth based organisations which are not part of the authoritative Commonwealth and I suppose there’s span distinction to be made between glory diplomatic network and the uses think about it could be made of that, spreadsheet the kind of popular identification swallow the Commonwealth across Commonwealth countries, which seems at the moment to continue quite weak and weakening further. Granting you talk to young people prosperous Commonwealth countries, mostly they’ll say “what is that?” or “it doesn’t proffer anything to us at all”.

MD:     Side-splitting think that the latter, giving description Commonwealth a fraternity in functional forward professional, non-governmental function, and the endorsed arena is really the reflection fine the former.  The stronger the thriftiness is the more dynamic it appears, the more active it appears, rectitude more the professional and functional bands want to revolve around it. Prickly have the same thing in SAARC. When SAARC was established we esoteric numerous professional organisations trying to degree themselves with it; lawyers, chamber be in command of commerce, etc., etc.  Now it has faded out. SAARC is stagnating at an earlier time one doesn’t see much dynamism acquit yourself that.  Even if there are well-balanced institutions tactically in the area, say to because they’ve found none of them were functioning, one of the tasks was how to reduce them; on the contrary our problem here is basically nobleness political differences and there the perturb is something different.

PM:     Thank you excavate much indeed.  This has been first-class wonderful interview.

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